Ending the "Cycle of Violence"

What the Arab Nations have spent on War,could have transformed the whole Middle East into a Garden Of Eden
adn a true Paradise.
Israel has NEVER started a War or killed anyone ; it has ALWAYS been a DEFENSIVE action

Posted by: greenberg at Mar 11, 2008 4:17:42 PM

I wonder how many readers realize that if you key in the words "Zionist songs" or "Jewish women" on youtube you get the most severe form of anti-semitic and anti-israel" videos that can be viewed on your computer in the first few videos that come up on your screen. I would'nt be surprised if this holds true whenevr you key in the words Jewish of Israel. How can we counter this ?

Posted by: howard young at Mar 11, 2008 4:21:39 PM

I'm sorry, but there most definitely is a cycle of violence. While Israel has a certain right to defend itself, the country almost always steps up its actions in a disproportionate way whenever terrorist groups achieve a symbolic victory: the Shalit kidnapping, a bombing in a special location, and that sort of event.

In many cases, moderate Palestinians are punished unfairly in the process: see the walls, sudden settlement expansion plans, economic sanctions, or the airstrikes that deal collateral damage (read: civilian casualties).

Israel has a right to defend itself against groups that don't seek some kind of autonomy through peaceful means, but that doesn't give carte blanche -- and it's the belief that it does which creates a vicious circle.

Someone has to offer the olive branch first (and I don't mean just good intentions or vague roadmaps). Until Israel learns that, things will stay as they are.

Posted by: Jonathan at Mar 11, 2008 4:29:44 PM

Israel is NOT an aggressor- they have to respond in order to defend itself. They are not seeking to kill innocent civilians but when Hamas launches rockets and uses children as human shields from where they srore their weaspons, what is Isreal to do? They are unfortunately collateral damage - they do not purposely seek to kill innocents - a far different cry from terrorists who do seek to kill innocent civilians. When will the rest of the world recognize this?

Posted by: carol at Mar 11, 2008 4:43:08 PM

The cartoon in the 'Cycle of Violence' article is not just a "tit for tat." It is a "tit for tat tat tat....." meaning that Israel is over-reacting to something the terrorists did. A complaint the whole world always levies against Israel.
As to Jonathan's statement that someone has to offer an olive branch, Israel did. Israel pulled out of Gaza and in return rockets are now fired on a daily basis into Israeli towns. No country in the world would sit idly by when another country bombs it. But Israel is expected to do so. Recently, the 'great savior' Chavez of the 'democratic dictatorship' of Venezuala amassed troops to invade Columbia because that country chased after guerillas into Venezuala. But that's OK, since it wasn't Israel that was doing the chasing.

Posted by: Abe at Mar 11, 2008 4:52:00 PM

Disproportinate response:Maybe what Israel needs to do is to go into a school in Gaza and kill 8 students.
Or they should build kasam type rockets and start fiering them indiscriminately into Gaza.Maybe the world would be happier with that type of response by Israel

Posted by: at Mar 11, 2008 5:00:34 PM

Is Jonathan for real?
Is there a cycle of violence?
Is Israel inciting the poor Palestinians in their quest for true peace or are the Palestinians bent on the the destruction of the State of Israel?
Every attempt by the Israelis to extend an olive branch to the Palestinians has been met with violence and death. Territorial compromise has in the past led to intifadas and most currently, with Gaza, created a launching pad for thousands of rockets into Israel.
Economic sanctions are in place to deter the terror so that we don't have to resort to a military response. A lot good that seems to do. Walls are constructed not to "punish" the Palestinians but to keep the terrorist/murderers out. When airstrikes are deemed necessary
they are targeted at the terrorists, not directed at the civilian population as are the actions of the Palestinian terrorists who directly target our innocent men, women & children. Do you call the actions of the Palestinian terrorist defensive? Is entering a religious institution and murdering 8 innocent students in their teens and twenties defensive? Is the targeting of unarmed civilians and infants ever justifiable?
Israel does not strike carte blanche. It seeks to remove the terrorist who has attacked and who seeks Israel's desrtuction. It does so in very careful measured ways so as to cause the least amount of collateral damage often endangering the lives of its own soldiers. By the way, where does Hamas hide their weapons and rockets other than in schools, hospitals and areas populated by civilian ?
What about those thousands of rockets launched daily at Israel indiscriminately from Gaza? Who are the terrorists targeting? If missiles were raining into the US from Mexico you could be sure that the response would be swift and decisive and would end only once the terrorists had been removed.
Israel has no choice, unfortunately then to respond to these acts of terror. Who then will stop the the Palestinian murderous terrorists??
The other Arab countries? The moderate Palestinians? The USA? Europe? YOU???? Where are the moderate Palestinians (I.e. Fattah)? Are they attempting to stop Hamas? Are they interested in peace or in buying time and obtaining land from which to attempt to strike further into Israel?
Israel would like nothing better than to rip down the walls, throw away the guns and live in peace with all its neighbors.
Jonathan lets not lose sight of who is really seeking peace and who is interested in a state of Palestine where Israel currently exists?
What sort of olive branch have the Palestinians offered? Suicide bombers, katyusha rockets, rioting and shootings? They can't even seem to commit to recognizing Israel's right to exist (sort of like a persons right to breath) and a cessation of murderous acts. Israel has and still does offer an olive branch. They wish to coexist peacefully with the Palestinians and all their Arab neighbors as they have clearly demonstrated in the past. Can we truly say the same for the Palestinians?

Posted by: Outraged in Jersey at Mar 11, 2008 5:38:10 PM

I have seen many users on Flickr dedicate the bulk of their time to defaming Israel and promoting Palestinian victimhood. One of the most outspoken is AnomalousNYC and his Palestine Project:
http://flickr.com/photos/anomalous/sets/522872/

I suggest that you take a deep breath before clicking the above link as the images and rhetoric can be quite overwhelming.

Posted by: daniel at Mar 11, 2008 5:42:15 PM

In response to: "Maybe what Israel needs to do is to go into a school in Gaza and kill 8 students. Or they should build kasam type rockets and start fiering them indiscriminately into Gaza.Maybe the world would be happier with that type of response by Israel"

While that would be a "proportinate" response, it certainly would not be a very humane one. Unlike Islamic terror, Israel has (for better or for worse) made the decision that human life on the opposing side is worth protecting.

Posted by: daniel at Mar 11, 2008 5:46:12 PM

To 'Jonathan' who has commented above.

Someone has to hold out an olive branch? So you mean you want to seriously argue that between 94-98% of the occupied territories with half of Jerusalem offered by Barak to Arafat in 2000 wasn't an olive branch??

How about Israel supplying Gaza with electricity and hamas using it to fire more than 300 rockets in one week?

And as for the disproportionate actions, it is precisely the fact that the media ignores Palesintian attacks that creates the impression of the Palestinians doing 'nothing' to provoke such counter-measures by Israel.

Just because few Israelis die in Palestinian attacks, does this mean to say defensive measures aren't allowed? Is this some kind of sick 'We have more killed so we're morally the victors' game?

Know your facts before you comment.

Yours is the ignorace this article speaks of.

Posted by: David at Mar 11, 2008 7:20:15 PM

I have to respond to Jonathan with a question. Did you happen to see the media reports about the demonstration in Gaza a couple of weeks ago - you know, the one that fizzled. The plan was for thousands of Palestinians to join hands around the border with Israel, with the potential to breach the border, similar to the way the border with Egypt had been breached a couple of weeks before.

As you would expect, Israel did not look to kindly on this possibility. israeli troops were moved up to the border with Gaza, prepared to defend her citizens.

If you saw the media reports, you might also have seen that schools in Gaza were closed for the occasion. Not only that, Hamas also BUSSED CHILDREN to the border.

So tell me, Jonathan, what would you have said if the border had been breached and some Palestinian kids had been hurt or, G-d forbid, killed in the ensuing battle? Would you still point the finger at Israel, proving yourself to be yet another of Hamas's useful idiots?

Posted by: Stanley at Mar 11, 2008 7:22:39 PM

Jonathan wrote:

"Israel has a right to defend itself against groups that don't seek some kind of autonomy through peaceful means, but that doesn't give carte blanche"

Nobody HAS argued that Israel should have CARTE BLANCHE.

What has been argued is that Israel should have the right to do SOMETHING. Since you explicitly agree with that, then what exactly is that SOMETHING as opposed to what they are doing now?

As the article points out, most people who complain about Israel's "disproportonate response" never bother to clarify what a proportonate response is, probably because they may find themselves unable to actually answer that question correctly.

Saying Israel should "hold out the olive branch" is the same meaningless platitude that has been uttered for years without producing any results since it doesn't address any of the basic issues. And that is: Hamas exists.

Posted by: Avrom at Mar 11, 2008 7:24:16 PM

By defintion, "cycle" means a movement of equal force or value into either a downward or upward direction. The key here is "equal". No one can equate the bombing of innocent civilians with acts to defend citizens against such terror. Attempts to equate these reveal bias and purposeful hatred. Hey guys, give jews and Israelis a little slack. They are simply trying to live. And they do it so well. Look at their achievement and gifts to the world. Thanks for tolerance--it must be hiding somehere.

Posted by: Carol at Mar 11, 2008 8:39:13 PM

I loath agreeing with anything that hints that Israel may be wrong, but I have to agree with Jonathan. There certainly is a cycle of violence. It makes no matter who started it, it exists and to deny it is to turn our collective backs on reality. There is NOT, however a disproportionate response. The Christian bible says that if someone slaps you on the cheek, turn the other one. Israel has done that time after time after time, yet the Arabs take any timidity as a sign of weakness, not as a sign of restraint.

So when Israel finally decides to take action, they take ACTION! If the Arabs wish to eliminate the unfortunate and unnecessary deaths of civilians, then get the hell out of civilian areas when you shoot your rockets.

The United States is guilty of disproportionate action in both Afghanistan and Iraq. What have either of those countries done to deserve the wholesale slaughter of their civilian populations? Nothing. The real target of the United State's anger is Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, it is hard for Bush and Company (the world's largest oil company) to get out of bed with the Saudis long enough to punish them, so they went after two countries that had NOTHING to do with September 11, 2001. Nothing!

One of the English creators of the Web announced the other day that the web is becoming a dangerous place, and it is. Just Google for news about Israel, Jews, Judaism and you'll see things you do not want to see.

So let's stop pretending that there isn't a "cycle of violence." It does exist and anyone with a brain knows it. The Arabs do A and Israel does B in reaction. Reaction is the key word. Israel does not attack; it retaliates for wrongs done to it and her citizens. Like it or not it is a cycle that has repeated itself since the creation of the state.

EQUATING Arab attacks with Israel's response is what is so wrong with the term "cycle" and that is what needs to be corrected in the hearts and minds of people around the world.

Should Israel overreact? You betcha it should. Hamas and the PA have one goal in mind: the total elimination of Israel as an entity. That means killing each and every Jew they can get their filthy maniacal hands on. Fighting for your very existence is reasonable and expected of any nation or people. The world is ignorant of the truth, and the truth is that the terms Arabs and Nazi genocide go hand in hand.

The cycle of violence will stop only when the Arabs decide to stop it. Israel must have willing partners in a peace. Alas, I fear that is something that I will never see in my lifetime.

George W. Bush, in a last second attempt to give himself a "legacy" says that he will bring about a peace between the two parties before the end of the year, once again showing the world his complete lack of understanding the dynamics of the Arab world. He kisses them, holds hands with them and they, in return, laugh their behinds off. Sadly, there is nothing funny about what the American people did in electing Bush as president or what the Arabs in Gaza did in electing Hamas as their leaders. What utter stupidity and tragedy for both sides.

Posted by: Beverly Kurtin at Mar 11, 2008 10:00:15 PM

The appropriate response to military attack is a formal declaration of war before the united nations for dismissal of biased comment followed by appropriate strikes against the cat's paw enemies, iran and syria and if needed in a second phase closing effort, other arab attackers.
The effect may involve wrecking the Iranian oil economy and inconveniencing the oil thirsty West but that is of no importance weighed against the survival and national health of Israel.
This course is clearly not possible under the present weak government but it is the sole effective procedure for ensuring survival.

Posted by: charlie rome at Mar 11, 2008 10:29:45 PM

TO Jonathan:
Some people live in a dream world and other''s don't. Ask yourself the question? Who is the aggressor here? You would probably like to make moral or 'immoral' equivalents but the true be told: As many have said If the Arabs that call themselves Palestinians would put their arms down there would be peace , if the Israelis put there arms down there would be a bloodly massacre! The Arabs sent over hundreds of kAssams and rockets withe the intent to murder Jewish babies,children women, ,and men . All the arabs have to do is yell "the territories, the occupation" and other semantics to get people like you to rally for a cause. It's called turnspeak and disinformation. When the arab palestinians said that what happened in Gaza was a holocaust, most people like you jumped on the bandwagon and proclaimed yes, it was a holocaust without applying to their mind what a real shoah is. Most people didn't know that the arab palestinians in gaza were sending rockets over to the border Israelis towns to kill innocent Jews simply because they don't like them. The israelis government foolishly, naively gave a beautiful thriving town of Gaza to these animals, displaced their own people for their stupid inane peace process and got hell back! That should teach the government a lesson but I guess they are slow learners. So, the only cycle that is being played out here is the cycle of stupidity. A government who keeps its own people in harms way giving away eveything for a mythical, unobtainable peace.

Posted by: elizabeth at Mar 11, 2008 11:30:33 PM

Surely, laughing is better than crying-if laughing in thousands miles from places affected by islamist terrorist directly, especially.

Posted by: Michael Kerjman at Mar 12, 2008 2:54:40 AM

"Moreover, the civilians in Gaza cannot claim immunity to the consequences of the war that their leadership is conducting against Israel. Hamas was popularly elected in 2006 and every public opinion poll continues to indicate substantial support by Gazans for Hamas, as well as for terrorist attacks on Israel. Unfortunately, killing Jews is popular among the Palestinians."

Please retract this part. This affirmation goes blatantly against the precepts of International Law under which CIVILIAN POPULATIONS are immune from any reprisals / targeting by armed forces. You are dangerously close to repeating the argument Terrorists use to target all Israelis as they all at one time or another serve in the IDF.

Publicly retract this part and note it in your next communiqué or you will lose my support completely. This is unacceptable coming from such a respectable / reputable organization. I hope you won't let your loyal readers and yourself down by just moving on without taking this opportunity to learn from a common mistake and have everyone benefit from it.

Marc Chétrit
Lawyer
Montreal, Canada

Posted by: Marc Chétrit at Mar 12, 2008 3:11:14 AM

Daniel, I think I will take a deep breath and then look at flickers. However, I'm not sure the most extreme webs are the most effective sites for counter-information. Most of the real true dyed-in-the-heart anti-Semites are unreachable. Lately I've been roaming around some of the so-called "left/liberal" sites, e.g. "Truthdig", and jousting with the Jew-haters on the threads. They crawl out from under their rocks on a great variety of subjects, not just specifically Middle Eastern issues. Sometimes attempting to counter the historical facts bears fruit -- out of hundreds of posts, I think I've only changed the mindsets of several people -- but mostly it is grim and disturbing to see how thoroughly our natural allies, the progessives, have been co-opted by the anti-Semites. I only do this four or five times a week; you can only listen to so much hatred directed at you and your people before you feel a creeping depression or paranoia setting in. Then it's time for a break. Anyway, liberal blogs are all over the net. As it looks more and more like we're going to have a President Obama, and the mood will become increasingly anti-Semitic as his former campaign volunteers, deprived of the big rallies and inspiration, look around for some other crusade, and what better cause than bad Israelis wantonly killing all of those nice Arabs who only want to blow up things yet be left alone. We're about to be deluged on such sites by a ton of b.s. and need to show the Mogen David flag -- presented as the symbol it is of the only progressive democracy in a blighted region.

Posted by: Sepharad at Mar 12, 2008 6:31:52 AM

I am concerned by the ease with which some of your arguments may be turned on their head.

You state that 'hundreds of Gazan civilians hurt in a defensive battle as collateral damage are worth the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians', so does that mean that when Baruch Goldstein killed 29 Muslims in Hebron, the hundred thousand residents of that city would have been justified in feeling under threat and heading out to injure or kill hundreds of Israelis in self-defence?

You also state that 'civilians in Gaza cannot claim immunity to the consequences of the war that their leadership is conducting against Israel' because they were popularly elected. Israeli civilians elected our current government - does that make us all legitimate targets too?

Paul Sandler
Tel Aviv

Posted by: Paul Sandler at Mar 12, 2008 11:27:36 AM

Whether reacting to violence in this case can be referred to as a "cycle" is still unproven.
When Israel left Gaza (indeed an "olive branch')I noticed no praise from the world and the reaction from the Pals. was ...Rockets !!That was sure some disproportional gratitude eh?
Media was silent as usual, well heaven forbid they ever put Israel in a good light after all !
Clinton and Ross were literally shocked at the time of the talks with Barak and Arafat,witnessing it was all up to the Pals. Johnathan to make peace- they are the ones who refuse who do not want peace only the destruction of the Jewish state, and it makes no difference who is in power, fatah or Hamas..this is their goal and they are willing to use innocent civilians on both sides to achieve this. Diabolical...UGH
Anna
Netherlands

Posted by: Anna at Mar 12, 2008 1:57:24 PM

I keep waiting for some so-called "moderate" Muslim leaders to condemn the violence, but I wait in vain. Where are the protest marches about murder being done in the name of their religion? They say, quietly, that these actions do not represent the "true Islamic faith." I wish they would shout it out loud, so the violent Jihadists, and the rest of the world, can hear them.

Posted by: Ann at Mar 13, 2008 7:05:18 AM

Well, I do agree Israel is just defending itself and is surrounded by countries who dislike it and the are really is tough..

Justified retaliation or not, saying there is no cycle is ridiculous. It doesn't matter what right the Israeli's have to defend themselves- it's still a cycle.. which I believe is unfortunate.

No matter what, Israeli defensive strikes have been viewed by at least some Palestinians as evil acts.

Add in some anti-Israeli bias..
And that'll lead retaliatory violence by extremist-Palestinians..

so I think it is inaccurate to say that there is no cycle of violence.
HonestReporting may be correct in saying Israel is just protecting itself, but that doesn't mean there is no cycle.

Posted by: MMARIN at Mar 16, 2008 12:43:43 AM